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June 4, 2011
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Arguments I Am Tired of Hearing Online

Journal Entry: Sat Jun 4, 2011, 9:07 AM
:iconbots-of-honor::iconbwsecondchances::iconcomics-in-disguise::iconfunpubcomics::iconlimelight-dreadwind::iconmattmoylan::iconmikepriest83:
:iconrid-nightviper::iconspotlight-stunticons::icontfaspotlight::icontf-seedsofdeception::icontf-the-lost-seasons::icontf-war-journal::icontransformers-mosaic:


Edit: Reading conversations like this: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?… are seriously starting to sour me on editing TV Tropes.

Seriously, the standard method of replying to people on forums everywhere is "troll-at-work", "annoying", and the site admin has said he'll ignore any post using it? I can't wrap my head around how ignorant that is. Hi, admin dude, maybe you might want to stick your head out of the bubble and experience the rest of the Internet?
  1. "TL;DR"

    Amazingly enough, it's not going to kill you to read more than a few sentences. Or, if I'm wrong and you're wimpy enough that it would kill you, we're probably best off doing the gene pool a favor by letting it happen.

    Also, if you're too lazy/immature to read said more than a few sentences, then you're also likely too lazy/immature to come up with a contribution to the conversation that it's worth wasting my time to read. Go back to play in the sandbox and leave the conversation to the adults with attention spans longer than a kindergardener's.
  2. "Insert nitpicking some incidental comment I made or nitpicking my analogy, often completely dumbass nitpicking, while mostly or completely missing my actual point."

    Hey, wow, thanks for making me waste my time on this irrelevant idiocy because you're too much of a moron to get and comment on my actual friggin' point.
  3. "You just won't admit you're wrong!"

    If you actually showed I was wrong, I would admit it.
  4. "Well, you're wrong, but I'm not going to tell you how because you're not worth my time/it should be obvious/I like watching you squirm/etc."

    Read: "I don't have a good explanation of why you're wrong, so I'm going to make a desperate attempt to save face."

    But do feel free to come back when you're willing to prove you're not full of bullshit.
  5. "You're so childish/immature/need to grow up/etc.!"

    I know, man, it's so childish to back up your points, write something longer than five sentences, and expect someone to have an intelligent response to a post. Clearly I should take the mature route you're demonstrating of refusing to actually back up my points, being insulting, and making idiot responses.
  6. "You didn't even read/pay attention to what I'm saying!"

    Oh, I did read and quite thoroughly addressed every point you made. I just think it's completely wrong.

    If I honestly misunderstood what you said, explain how I misunderstood and I'll reexamine. Otherwise, suck it up.
  7. "Do you ever stop acting like a bitch?"

    That depends, do you ever stop acting like an ass and/or moron?
  8. "But this conversation isn't important enough for me to try to use proper English!"

    If you can't be bothered to make an effort to try to use comprehensible English, I can't be bothered to make the effort to figure out what the hell your lazy gibberish was supposed to mean. Next!
  9. Anything fanwank that's meant seriously.

    Look. If you're trying to make an argument that sounds like it belongs on TV Tropes' Wild Mass Guessing pages, and you're not being 100% tongue-in-cheek about it, please step away from the keyboard and go get a life while you still can.
  10. "Well, we/I/this thing we're talking about doesn't have to do it the same way as everyone else does, 'cause we're/I'm/it's a special snowflake!"

    Yep, you sure are a special snowflake. Just the same as, you know, everyone else is.
  11. Anytime someone ignores my counterpoint to repeat the point I just addressed.

    Since my counterpoint is still applicable no matter how many times you repeatedly post the point I already addressed, I'm just obviously going to repeat my counterpoint until you actually, you know, address the counterpoint. So wake me when you finally cotton on to how a debate works.
  12. "Bawwww, you're so mean/arrogant for picking apart my opinion. I have a right to my opinion!"

    Yep, that's true, you do have a right to an opinion. And if said opinion is based on incorrect facts and/or faulty logic, I have a right to tell you I think it's a dumbass opinion and why. Suck it up.

    If you don't like people telling you your opinion is wrong, then either don't hold that opinion or don't subject us to listening to it.
  13. "You're pushing your opinion on me!"

    Well, no, I'm explaining/defending my opinion. That's what you're supposed to do in a debate, dumbass. If you see a flaw in my reasoning, go ahead and address it. But if you just don't like my opinion, tough titties.
  14. "Wow, I can't believe you people are still talking about/putting so much thought into this topic."

    Yep, some of us actually want to discuss the topic at hand. If you don't want to, why are you posting in it? We don't care that you don't care about it. There's the door. :icongtfoplz:
  15. "Baw. I can't believe you were insulted about something someone said on the internet."

    News flash: If something would be rude if you said it to my face, it doesn't suddenly become less rude because you said it to me while you're too far away for me to punch you/slap you/throw my drink in your face. It just makes you both a jerkass and a coward.
  16. "Man, when I said <insert mean thing here> I was joking. Lighten up/get a sense of humor."

    I have a sense of humor. It involves laughing at things that are funny. I'm still waiting for you to say something that's actually funny!
  17. Anything involving armchair psychology of my opinions.

    Yes. Because someone who isn't me and isn't one of my close friends knows better than I do about my life situation and/or why I have an opinion.

    News flash: I don't give a rat's ass about why some stranger thinks I have an opinion, especially since your reasoning is almost certain to be wrong. Either address my actual opinion, or don't waste my time.
...give me time, I'll probably come up with more, but these are the ones I could think of off the top of my head to rant about.

Also, I hate the main TF fandom. Seriously, you can't even swing a cat on the main TF sites without hitting someone acting like an arrogant and/or condescending dipshit. How do some of these people function in society?

(Although these arguments I'm tired of come from more than just the TF forums.)

:bulletblue::bulletblue::bulletblue:

:lmao: Oh, man, read this forum thread here: comments.deviantart.com/18/149… It's like half of the immature idiotic things I complained about here condensed into a single conversation.

What's hilarious is that one of these folks was someone bitching about how she had a troll problem. It's like, well, hate to say it, but if you spout that sort of childish idiocy all the time, I can see why the trolls pick on you. Might as well paint a giant target on your back.

I shudder to think how these kiddies are gonna react when they get out into the Real World, if they think I'm bad. :lmao:

:bulletblue::bulletblue::bulletblue:

Maybe I should just use this as a "hilariously funny stupidity" dumping ground whenever I come across something particularly note-worthy. Sadly, the person in question this time around cowardly closed their comments due to not being able to handle having someone point out flaws in their arguments, so I'll have to summarize this one.

So I spotted this stamp: :thumb172144764: as a rebuttal against global warming.

To which I pointed out that the problem is that the winters are becoming less cold and the summers more hot. (I mean, come on, it's been regularly reaching 90+ degrees in the summer the past few years here in MA. How is that normal?)

To which they responded that it was "normal fluctuations" and other changes. To which I pointed out that trained scientists are no doubt aware of things like the seasons, climate cycles, and such, and in one of the articles she linked, the article itself even said that the natural change observed doesn't discount global warming. She never did actually respond to that one despite my repeatedly pressing her.

And then she brought up Climategate. Which I pointed out had been debunked. So she brought up all these little conspiracy theorist sites on the matter. I asked if she had some reputable sites to link to, while linking to an NYT and Salon site, among others.

She then said that NYT and the other main sites were all biased and paranoid, and that her underground sites were the only places that had "the truth". Which might still have been defensible, if she hadn't listed Fox News, Drudge Report, and WorldNetDaily as supposedly being reputable (and presumably non-biased) sources of The Truth. (The only place she listed that I would consider remotely reliable is the BBC.)

And then she closed the comments on the deviation. (Ever notice how 95% of the time, if a deviation has comments closed, it's something that's presenting a flawed, incorrect, or provocative argument?) Which I suppose is just as well, as I lost all interest in continuing the debate once I realized I was dealing with the type of person who thinks Fox News is a reputable source for... anything news-related.

:bulletblue::bulletblue::bulletblue:

And another one.

Started out well, but eventually disappointingly but typically disintegrated into a combo of "TL;DR" and "You're pushing your opinion on me", as well as the new "You think you're always right even though I didn't actually explain how you were wrong even though you invited me to", and "You're so childish even though you made a well-thought-out post and I didn't make an effort to respond to it".

:bulletblue::bulletblue::bulletblue:

Sorry for all the updates lately, but I came across this conversation lately, and it literally floored me: comments.deviantart.com/18/154…

It's basically two people arguing that... well, look I gotta quote one of their posts, because this has to be seen to be believed:
"They don't need a house, then. If you don't have the money to rent or buy property then you shouldn't be living in property of your own. How disgusting and stupid it is to think that just because people are poor that they should be given very great things like their own apartment when there are millions and millions of people living under tarps or goatskin tents doing just fine.

Poor people do not need to be entitled to anything. That is part of being poor."
And judging by their continued response, that was either a serious post, or they're trolling me with an utterly straight face, I'm not sure which. Either way, I'm just reading this whole thing like "Buh... duh... what?"

:bulletblue::bulletblue::bulletblue:

This new one isn't so much an argument as it is a trend that's irritating and confusing the hell out of me.

Namely, I post an opinion. Someone posts a rebuttal to my opinion. I disagree with the rebuttal, so I make a post explaining my opinion and why I think the rebuttal is wrong or misses the point or whatever.

And then the person jumps down my throat saying man what am I doing, they didn't want a debate, or TL;DR, or bitching I'm shoving their opinion down their throat, or otherwise acting like I'm bizarre for responding to their disagreement/rebuttal to me.

And it's like, WTF? If you didn't want me to get into a "debate" with you, or back up my opinion against your response, why did you even respond to me to begin with? Just for shits and giggles?

And this has happened to me a LOT on DA over the past two years. And what's weird is that it seems to be a DA-only thing. I've really never encountered it anywhere else; even the TF fandom has generally avoided this one.

  • Mood: Not Impressed
  • Listening to: Machinarium soundtrack
  • Reading: Too many dumbass arguments
  • Watching: Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog
  • Playing: King's Quest 3 Redux
Add a Comment:
 
:iconfurby4537568:
furby4537568 Featured By Owner Feb 11, 2011  Hobbyist General Artist
Seriously wish there was something to favorite journals.

Your summary of your views actaully woke me up just now. Personally, I try to stay away from the main points, however there's some ideas that just annoy the living shit out of me.
On another note, when it comes to the Republicans hounding the poor into segrigated housing, it's kind of upsetting, and it's puts a bad image on the country. If one person in that area could speak out, it could mean millions of dollars worth of damage to the country. It's not right. As someone who lives across the northern border (Canada... It's cold, and we love it!), it strikes me as ignorance. By ignoring the people who live in the country, and the smaller apartments, it just shows how unwilling they are to let people into a job. More and more jobs are requiring degrees, as one of the other comments said, and it's starting to become a huge money pool. If people keep on paying for things like this, more and more money is added to the pool. Eventually, the schools or workplaces that house these jobs make stupid mistakes with it, and do things that don't benifit the people. They make it so it benifits themselves.
All in all, as I have to run and catch a bus, you summed up the points really well :3
Reply
:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Feb 14, 2011  Hobbyist Writer
Why, thank you. :) If it helps, I've been considering condensing/rewording it into an actual deviation. It originally started as a way to vent frustration, but lately I've been wanting to use it as a cheat sheet for just unproductive arguments I'd like it if people stopped making. "You just committed Bad Internet Argument #12. Please don't do it again."

I just get really frustrated at the way the poor get vilified in this country at times. Yes there are some actual freeloaders and irresponsible people; there's always going to be. But honestly, every poor coworker I've had at my various jobs has been the same type of person: They work hard (having worked office, retail, and warehouse jobs, I can say with certainty that the latter two are a lot harder than people realize) but get little in return, they hate dealing with government assistance and how inadequate and headachy it is, and they all dream of having a better-paying job that would let them live better and not need help but have no way to get there. They're definitely not the lazy moochers that the rich and right-wing like to paint them as.

And after a hard day's work they deserve to go back home to a decent apartment, not a friggin' tent or tarp. (Never mind that countries where the poor live in such dwellings are WARM. Trying to live in anything less than a heated building in a state like mine where the nights regularly go below zero in winter is a good recipe for freezing to death.)
Reply
:iconfurby4537568:
furby4537568 Featured By Owner Feb 14, 2011  Hobbyist General Artist
Heh, by all means, do it :D
I'm sure a lot of people have the same feeling actually.

I remember volunteering at a retail outlet actually. It's just amazing on how much Canada and the US both thrive on the Service industry. We would be nothing without it, yet we barely pay the people who have to put up with the daily bullshit. On top of that, most of the money they work hard to make ends up going to taxes and upkeep. This leaves usually abrely anything to go out and enjoy life a little, maybe buying that new thing they had their eyes on, or saving up to finish their education. Usually, the government support provides the bare minimum.

The problem about supplying the minimum? The cost of living is going up. Our lives today mainly are mainly based around a single fossil fuel, oil. Because the cost of that resource is going up, the cost of living is increasing too. The speed of the wage increase isn't going to cut it, and that causes people to work two, maybe even three jobs just to stay on top of things. I will admit this, that the same things are happening here in Canada too. There's homeless shelters, but again, that's usually bare minimum standards. I remember being in one preparing their lunches for a day. Often, people came up for seconds and thirds. Hell, some of them even had the latest gadgets. This shows that even some middle-class people are being forced to go to soup kitchens and homeless just to get enough food for the day. Often, these places are run by donations of both food and money, and very little government support. It is typically up to the municipality's job to make sure these places are actually running. They are hard-working people who are trying to get by just like everyone else in the world. Indeed, they do deserve to return home to a warm apartment for those who live in the northern states/ some mid-country (Not sure how this is said down there...), states, as well as the proviinces here. Without the middle-class working in service industries, we would be nowhere. We make goods to sell them, so we can repeat the process. We do this to get by, and some succeed, and others fail... But the least we can do is try.
Reply
:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Feb 27, 2011  Hobbyist Writer
Yeah, the service industry is becoming a larger and larger part of our workforce, and yet so many people still act like minimum-wage jobs are just pocket money for students and housemoms, or otherwise not something an adult should be expected to be doing for a living (and thus deserve to be paid a living wage). They also tend to treat them like idiots or slaves, rather than important cornerstones of being able to Get Things Done.

Yeah, it's easy to look at someone with a cell phone or such, and think of them as being at least not-poor. But oftentimes it's a cheap pay-as-you-go phone, or the gadget is something you bought back when you actually had money. Food and rent, meanwhile, are an ongoing expense. Things like soup kitchens and shelters are really meant to be temporary accommodations, so the fact that people are having to rely on them regularly more and more is bad. And despite that, you still have plenty of politicians (usually the Republicans) who want to cut wages and government assistance further and do nothing to stop companies from cutting or outsourcing jobs.
Reply
:iconhappyhedgehog:
Happyhedgehog Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2011
Looks to me like you're probably being trolled. You shouldn't let random people get to you so much heh, you know you're never going to win against someone with a point so clearly extreme as that (if they are indeed being serious).

Although I will hand one thing to them, they're right about the internet thing, you don't /need/ it to get a job, in fact an address will usually do, and a bank account if you have one. Although that's not always needed either.

'Proper dress clothing for interviews' and showers are also optional. :rofl: (although I'm sure some clothes are preferred) .
Reply
:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2011  Hobbyist Writer
Possibly, although it's admittedly not too far off from some utterly serious opinions I've seen here and in the media in general lately. There seems to be plenty of people (mostly Republicans) who are quite serious about thinking the poor deserve what they get and damn the "freeloaders". Heck, the Republicans even dragged their feet in approving the latest Unemployment extensions. Never underestimate the ability of the average rich American to be a clueless ass.

Then again, even if it was a troll, it was audacious enough that I wanted to share.

Maybe not in England, but here in the US if you want to find a non-minimum wage job, internet access definitely helps, and an address and phone number (or other form of contact) are mandatory. Heck, there's a not insignificant number of companies who won't even consider hiring you if they can't conduct a background check and/or credit check on you.

LMAO. Man, now I wish I lived in England. If people can still get jobs even while interviewing in casual clothes or unwashed, I'd be almost guaranteed a job in comparison!
Reply
:iconhappyhedgehog:
Happyhedgehog Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2011
Well honestly I was thinking along the lines on a minimum wage job, because everyone has to start somewhere and it seems to me that there are so many people (in the UK for sure) that are too 'high and mighty' to even consider a low paid job. *

But yes, it seems to me as though most people have lost the ability to live within their own means. I certainly remember from only a few years back going round to people’s houses, people who live on benefits in council owned and paid for houses and stepping inside to see a 42” screen TV along with numerous gaming systems and then wondering how the hell they’re able to afford it.

In my experience with minimum wage jobs, internet access definitely isn’t a must but like I said before, I can agree that an address is, and more than likely a telephone number, although it’s not unheard of to hear news by post. (But of course you can buy a pay as you go mobile phone now for about 14 and have your permanent no., it’s not too hard to figure a way around that).

I’m not sure if it’s the better jobs that want to conduct a credit check on you (and unless they’re a bank I’m not sure why they’d want to), but I know while a quick checkbox on a form about any criminal convictions you may have had and presumably some sort of google search of your name, for a background check is pretty much standard for shelf stacking jobs again. At least I’ve never witnessed anything past that.

And heck I’m pretty sure if you’re going for a job as a builder, your ability to look dashing in a tux isn’t top on their hit list of things to check. :lol: (Also the washing thing is probably optional too... although you’d probably have to show off your ‘leering at women’ skillz during the interview to get the job).

So yes... maybe you should move over, they’re sure to let you in if you’re willing to push around trolleys for a couple of hours a day.

Oh and I know what it’s like with the two tier society, our current governments principals essentially all revolve around turning our country in to a place where there’s the rich and then there’s the poor and nothing in between.

* One of the reason our government doesn't seem to want to put a stop to the large amount of immigrants coming over(not that I can blame them at all, because most of these 'immigrants' come here and work, actually helping our society by doing the low paid jobs that no one else wants to).
Reply
:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2011  Hobbyist Writer
Ah, I see. The problem is, around here, minimum wage is so minimum that you often still need some sort of government assistance to keep the bills paid.

It's not even about living within your means, really. I was pretty frugal--no kids, no cable TV, no car, no health insurance, very tiny apartment in a crappy neighborhood, the most valuable thing I owned was my computer (which cost around maybe $600 including the monitor and printer and everything) but my bare minimum expenses were still around $1000/month. If I got a 40/week minimum wage job, I'd make around $1178/month after taxes. And that's if I could get 40 hours a week, as most minimum wage places around here don't offer FT hours.

Now, imagine someone with kids and/or someone who needs a car to get to work, trying to live on similar wages without still needing assistance. You just can't. Or you can, but you're pretty much working 12 hours or more a day at two jobs (as my mom had to do until she was old enough for Social Security).

And mind you, Massachusetts has one of the highest minimum wages in the US. There's only six states with higher wages, and even the highest one doesn't break $9/hour.

I mean, I'd have been willing to give up and go back into retail, but it just wasn't an option after my best friend moved out. I'd still be in the red. I'm not lazy, but I'm not stupid either; if I'm going to be just as unable to pay the bills working at a shitty retail job as I would be sitting at home, what's even the point?

If you want something that pays an actual living wage and doesn't involve you having to pretty much live at your job(s), you're looking at either office work or needing to get a degree in some skill. And even the office work is starting to become impossible to get without a degree, much to my irritation.
Reply
:iconmirz123:
Mirz123 Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2011
I think they were serious. I have seen the trend, too. Poor are to be loathed. If they can't afford to survive, well, then... It's pretty scary because those types of beliefs are not new and they have led to some pretty scary stuff in the past. But, heaven help we learn from the past.

For a lot of people, "sustainable living" means getting rid of the "useless eaters." Scary stuff.
Reply
:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2011  Hobbyist Writer
Yeah. I don't know if this specific person was serious (not enough info in their profile to indicate), but I've certainly seen enough people who were totally serious saying somewhat similar things.

What bugs me is that, as you say, it doesn't have to be this way. We're one of the richest countries on this planet; we have more than enough resources to solve the problem of people being homeless or unable to keep up a household. But because we run on "Capitalism is good, socialism to freeloaders is bad, if you're poor it's because you're lazy", yeah, it doesn't happen. As you say, if the poor can't afford to survive, too bad in too many folks' minds.

Of course, it really bugs me when people say that the minimum wage workers are somehow not working hard enough or some crap. I wasn't kidding in that one post where I said my office job was easier than my retail one even though I was getting paid more to do it. I mean, sitting at my desk all day doing nothing but handling various types of paperwork and information, and not having to stand on my feet all day, scrub a single thing, lift a single box, or talk to a single customer? While getting $9/hour instead of $6/hour? I wasn't about to complain, but something was wrong with that picture.

Not that I even see how the freeloading would be bad even if it was as prevalent as people think it is. I mean, even adequate government assistance is still a pretty bare minimum existence. If someone lazy is really content living in a tiny, crappy apartment with almost no amenities or remotely fancy sustenance, well, I can't see the outrage. It's not like that support money is buying people a luxury existence or something. Meanwhile, most sane people would rather try for something better, but appreciate knowing they at least won't be starved or homeless in the process.
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