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June 4, 2011
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Arguments I Am Tired of Hearing Online

Journal Entry: Sat Jun 4, 2011, 9:07 AM
:iconbots-of-honor::iconbwsecondchances::iconcomics-in-disguise::iconfunpubcomics::iconlimelight-dreadwind::iconmattmoylan::iconmikepriest83:
:iconrid-nightviper::iconspotlight-stunticons::icontfaspotlight::icontf-seedsofdeception::icontf-the-lost-seasons::icontf-war-journal::icontransformers-mosaic:


Edit: Reading conversations like this: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?… are seriously starting to sour me on editing TV Tropes.

Seriously, the standard method of replying to people on forums everywhere is "troll-at-work", "annoying", and the site admin has said he'll ignore any post using it? I can't wrap my head around how ignorant that is. Hi, admin dude, maybe you might want to stick your head out of the bubble and experience the rest of the Internet?
  1. "TL;DR"

    Amazingly enough, it's not going to kill you to read more than a few sentences. Or, if I'm wrong and you're wimpy enough that it would kill you, we're probably best off doing the gene pool a favor by letting it happen.

    Also, if you're too lazy/immature to read said more than a few sentences, then you're also likely too lazy/immature to come up with a contribution to the conversation that it's worth wasting my time to read. Go back to play in the sandbox and leave the conversation to the adults with attention spans longer than a kindergardener's.
  2. "Insert nitpicking some incidental comment I made or nitpicking my analogy, often completely dumbass nitpicking, while mostly or completely missing my actual point."

    Hey, wow, thanks for making me waste my time on this irrelevant idiocy because you're too much of a moron to get and comment on my actual friggin' point.
  3. "You just won't admit you're wrong!"

    If you actually showed I was wrong, I would admit it.
  4. "Well, you're wrong, but I'm not going to tell you how because you're not worth my time/it should be obvious/I like watching you squirm/etc."

    Read: "I don't have a good explanation of why you're wrong, so I'm going to make a desperate attempt to save face."

    But do feel free to come back when you're willing to prove you're not full of bullshit.
  5. "You're so childish/immature/need to grow up/etc.!"

    I know, man, it's so childish to back up your points, write something longer than five sentences, and expect someone to have an intelligent response to a post. Clearly I should take the mature route you're demonstrating of refusing to actually back up my points, being insulting, and making idiot responses.
  6. "You didn't even read/pay attention to what I'm saying!"

    Oh, I did read and quite thoroughly addressed every point you made. I just think it's completely wrong.

    If I honestly misunderstood what you said, explain how I misunderstood and I'll reexamine. Otherwise, suck it up.
  7. "Do you ever stop acting like a bitch?"

    That depends, do you ever stop acting like an ass and/or moron?
  8. "But this conversation isn't important enough for me to try to use proper English!"

    If you can't be bothered to make an effort to try to use comprehensible English, I can't be bothered to make the effort to figure out what the hell your lazy gibberish was supposed to mean. Next!
  9. Anything fanwank that's meant seriously.

    Look. If you're trying to make an argument that sounds like it belongs on TV Tropes' Wild Mass Guessing pages, and you're not being 100% tongue-in-cheek about it, please step away from the keyboard and go get a life while you still can.
  10. "Well, we/I/this thing we're talking about doesn't have to do it the same way as everyone else does, 'cause we're/I'm/it's a special snowflake!"

    Yep, you sure are a special snowflake. Just the same as, you know, everyone else is.
  11. Anytime someone ignores my counterpoint to repeat the point I just addressed.

    Since my counterpoint is still applicable no matter how many times you repeatedly post the point I already addressed, I'm just obviously going to repeat my counterpoint until you actually, you know, address the counterpoint. So wake me when you finally cotton on to how a debate works.
  12. "Bawwww, you're so mean/arrogant for picking apart my opinion. I have a right to my opinion!"

    Yep, that's true, you do have a right to an opinion. And if said opinion is based on incorrect facts and/or faulty logic, I have a right to tell you I think it's a dumbass opinion and why. Suck it up.

    If you don't like people telling you your opinion is wrong, then either don't hold that opinion or don't subject us to listening to it.
  13. "You're pushing your opinion on me!"

    Well, no, I'm explaining/defending my opinion. That's what you're supposed to do in a debate, dumbass. If you see a flaw in my reasoning, go ahead and address it. But if you just don't like my opinion, tough titties.
  14. "Wow, I can't believe you people are still talking about/putting so much thought into this topic."

    Yep, some of us actually want to discuss the topic at hand. If you don't want to, why are you posting in it? We don't care that you don't care about it. There's the door. :icongtfoplz:
  15. "Baw. I can't believe you were insulted about something someone said on the internet."

    News flash: If something would be rude if you said it to my face, it doesn't suddenly become less rude because you said it to me while you're too far away for me to punch you/slap you/throw my drink in your face. It just makes you both a jerkass and a coward.
  16. "Man, when I said <insert mean thing here> I was joking. Lighten up/get a sense of humor."

    I have a sense of humor. It involves laughing at things that are funny. I'm still waiting for you to say something that's actually funny!
  17. Anything involving armchair psychology of my opinions.

    Yes. Because someone who isn't me and isn't one of my close friends knows better than I do about my life situation and/or why I have an opinion.

    News flash: I don't give a rat's ass about why some stranger thinks I have an opinion, especially since your reasoning is almost certain to be wrong. Either address my actual opinion, or don't waste my time.
...give me time, I'll probably come up with more, but these are the ones I could think of off the top of my head to rant about.

Also, I hate the main TF fandom. Seriously, you can't even swing a cat on the main TF sites without hitting someone acting like an arrogant and/or condescending dipshit. How do some of these people function in society?

(Although these arguments I'm tired of come from more than just the TF forums.)

:bulletblue::bulletblue::bulletblue:

:lmao: Oh, man, read this forum thread here: comments.deviantart.com/18/149… It's like half of the immature idiotic things I complained about here condensed into a single conversation.

What's hilarious is that one of these folks was someone bitching about how she had a troll problem. It's like, well, hate to say it, but if you spout that sort of childish idiocy all the time, I can see why the trolls pick on you. Might as well paint a giant target on your back.

I shudder to think how these kiddies are gonna react when they get out into the Real World, if they think I'm bad. :lmao:

:bulletblue::bulletblue::bulletblue:

Maybe I should just use this as a "hilariously funny stupidity" dumping ground whenever I come across something particularly note-worthy. Sadly, the person in question this time around cowardly closed their comments due to not being able to handle having someone point out flaws in their arguments, so I'll have to summarize this one.

So I spotted this stamp: :thumb172144764: as a rebuttal against global warming.

To which I pointed out that the problem is that the winters are becoming less cold and the summers more hot. (I mean, come on, it's been regularly reaching 90+ degrees in the summer the past few years here in MA. How is that normal?)

To which they responded that it was "normal fluctuations" and other changes. To which I pointed out that trained scientists are no doubt aware of things like the seasons, climate cycles, and such, and in one of the articles she linked, the article itself even said that the natural change observed doesn't discount global warming. She never did actually respond to that one despite my repeatedly pressing her.

And then she brought up Climategate. Which I pointed out had been debunked. So she brought up all these little conspiracy theorist sites on the matter. I asked if she had some reputable sites to link to, while linking to an NYT and Salon site, among others.

She then said that NYT and the other main sites were all biased and paranoid, and that her underground sites were the only places that had "the truth". Which might still have been defensible, if she hadn't listed Fox News, Drudge Report, and WorldNetDaily as supposedly being reputable (and presumably non-biased) sources of The Truth. (The only place she listed that I would consider remotely reliable is the BBC.)

And then she closed the comments on the deviation. (Ever notice how 95% of the time, if a deviation has comments closed, it's something that's presenting a flawed, incorrect, or provocative argument?) Which I suppose is just as well, as I lost all interest in continuing the debate once I realized I was dealing with the type of person who thinks Fox News is a reputable source for... anything news-related.

:bulletblue::bulletblue::bulletblue:

And another one.

Started out well, but eventually disappointingly but typically disintegrated into a combo of "TL;DR" and "You're pushing your opinion on me", as well as the new "You think you're always right even though I didn't actually explain how you were wrong even though you invited me to", and "You're so childish even though you made a well-thought-out post and I didn't make an effort to respond to it".

:bulletblue::bulletblue::bulletblue:

Sorry for all the updates lately, but I came across this conversation lately, and it literally floored me: comments.deviantart.com/18/154…

It's basically two people arguing that... well, look I gotta quote one of their posts, because this has to be seen to be believed:
"They don't need a house, then. If you don't have the money to rent or buy property then you shouldn't be living in property of your own. How disgusting and stupid it is to think that just because people are poor that they should be given very great things like their own apartment when there are millions and millions of people living under tarps or goatskin tents doing just fine.

Poor people do not need to be entitled to anything. That is part of being poor."
And judging by their continued response, that was either a serious post, or they're trolling me with an utterly straight face, I'm not sure which. Either way, I'm just reading this whole thing like "Buh... duh... what?"

:bulletblue::bulletblue::bulletblue:

This new one isn't so much an argument as it is a trend that's irritating and confusing the hell out of me.

Namely, I post an opinion. Someone posts a rebuttal to my opinion. I disagree with the rebuttal, so I make a post explaining my opinion and why I think the rebuttal is wrong or misses the point or whatever.

And then the person jumps down my throat saying man what am I doing, they didn't want a debate, or TL;DR, or bitching I'm shoving their opinion down their throat, or otherwise acting like I'm bizarre for responding to their disagreement/rebuttal to me.

And it's like, WTF? If you didn't want me to get into a "debate" with you, or back up my opinion against your response, why did you even respond to me to begin with? Just for shits and giggles?

And this has happened to me a LOT on DA over the past two years. And what's weird is that it seems to be a DA-only thing. I've really never encountered it anywhere else; even the TF fandom has generally avoided this one.

  • Mood: Not Impressed
  • Listening to: Machinarium soundtrack
  • Reading: Too many dumbass arguments
  • Watching: Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog
  • Playing: King's Quest 3 Redux
Add a Comment:
 
:iconfurby4537568:
furby4537568 Featured By Owner Feb 11, 2011  Hobbyist General Artist
Seriously wish there was something to favorite journals.

Your summary of your views actaully woke me up just now. Personally, I try to stay away from the main points, however there's some ideas that just annoy the living shit out of me.
On another note, when it comes to the Republicans hounding the poor into segrigated housing, it's kind of upsetting, and it's puts a bad image on the country. If one person in that area could speak out, it could mean millions of dollars worth of damage to the country. It's not right. As someone who lives across the northern border (Canada... It's cold, and we love it!), it strikes me as ignorance. By ignoring the people who live in the country, and the smaller apartments, it just shows how unwilling they are to let people into a job. More and more jobs are requiring degrees, as one of the other comments said, and it's starting to become a huge money pool. If people keep on paying for things like this, more and more money is added to the pool. Eventually, the schools or workplaces that house these jobs make stupid mistakes with it, and do things that don't benifit the people. They make it so it benifits themselves.
All in all, as I have to run and catch a bus, you summed up the points really well :3
Reply
:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Feb 14, 2011  Hobbyist Writer
Why, thank you. :) If it helps, I've been considering condensing/rewording it into an actual deviation. It originally started as a way to vent frustration, but lately I've been wanting to use it as a cheat sheet for just unproductive arguments I'd like it if people stopped making. "You just committed Bad Internet Argument #12. Please don't do it again."

I just get really frustrated at the way the poor get vilified in this country at times. Yes there are some actual freeloaders and irresponsible people; there's always going to be. But honestly, every poor coworker I've had at my various jobs has been the same type of person: They work hard (having worked office, retail, and warehouse jobs, I can say with certainty that the latter two are a lot harder than people realize) but get little in return, they hate dealing with government assistance and how inadequate and headachy it is, and they all dream of having a better-paying job that would let them live better and not need help but have no way to get there. They're definitely not the lazy moochers that the rich and right-wing like to paint them as.

And after a hard day's work they deserve to go back home to a decent apartment, not a friggin' tent or tarp. (Never mind that countries where the poor live in such dwellings are WARM. Trying to live in anything less than a heated building in a state like mine where the nights regularly go below zero in winter is a good recipe for freezing to death.)
Reply
:iconfurby4537568:
furby4537568 Featured By Owner Feb 14, 2011  Hobbyist General Artist
Heh, by all means, do it :D
I'm sure a lot of people have the same feeling actually.

I remember volunteering at a retail outlet actually. It's just amazing on how much Canada and the US both thrive on the Service industry. We would be nothing without it, yet we barely pay the people who have to put up with the daily bullshit. On top of that, most of the money they work hard to make ends up going to taxes and upkeep. This leaves usually abrely anything to go out and enjoy life a little, maybe buying that new thing they had their eyes on, or saving up to finish their education. Usually, the government support provides the bare minimum.

The problem about supplying the minimum? The cost of living is going up. Our lives today mainly are mainly based around a single fossil fuel, oil. Because the cost of that resource is going up, the cost of living is increasing too. The speed of the wage increase isn't going to cut it, and that causes people to work two, maybe even three jobs just to stay on top of things. I will admit this, that the same things are happening here in Canada too. There's homeless shelters, but again, that's usually bare minimum standards. I remember being in one preparing their lunches for a day. Often, people came up for seconds and thirds. Hell, some of them even had the latest gadgets. This shows that even some middle-class people are being forced to go to soup kitchens and homeless just to get enough food for the day. Often, these places are run by donations of both food and money, and very little government support. It is typically up to the municipality's job to make sure these places are actually running. They are hard-working people who are trying to get by just like everyone else in the world. Indeed, they do deserve to return home to a warm apartment for those who live in the northern states/ some mid-country (Not sure how this is said down there...), states, as well as the proviinces here. Without the middle-class working in service industries, we would be nowhere. We make goods to sell them, so we can repeat the process. We do this to get by, and some succeed, and others fail... But the least we can do is try.
Reply
:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Feb 27, 2011  Hobbyist Writer
Yeah, the service industry is becoming a larger and larger part of our workforce, and yet so many people still act like minimum-wage jobs are just pocket money for students and housemoms, or otherwise not something an adult should be expected to be doing for a living (and thus deserve to be paid a living wage). They also tend to treat them like idiots or slaves, rather than important cornerstones of being able to Get Things Done.

Yeah, it's easy to look at someone with a cell phone or such, and think of them as being at least not-poor. But oftentimes it's a cheap pay-as-you-go phone, or the gadget is something you bought back when you actually had money. Food and rent, meanwhile, are an ongoing expense. Things like soup kitchens and shelters are really meant to be temporary accommodations, so the fact that people are having to rely on them regularly more and more is bad. And despite that, you still have plenty of politicians (usually the Republicans) who want to cut wages and government assistance further and do nothing to stop companies from cutting or outsourcing jobs.
Reply
:iconhappyhedgehog:
Happyhedgehog Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2011
Looks to me like you're probably being trolled. You shouldn't let random people get to you so much heh, you know you're never going to win against someone with a point so clearly extreme as that (if they are indeed being serious).

Although I will hand one thing to them, they're right about the internet thing, you don't /need/ it to get a job, in fact an address will usually do, and a bank account if you have one. Although that's not always needed either.

'Proper dress clothing for interviews' and showers are also optional. :rofl: (although I'm sure some clothes are preferred) .
Reply
:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2011  Hobbyist Writer
Possibly, although it's admittedly not too far off from some utterly serious opinions I've seen here and in the media in general lately. There seems to be plenty of people (mostly Republicans) who are quite serious about thinking the poor deserve what they get and damn the "freeloaders". Heck, the Republicans even dragged their feet in approving the latest Unemployment extensions. Never underestimate the ability of the average rich American to be a clueless ass.

Then again, even if it was a troll, it was audacious enough that I wanted to share.

Maybe not in England, but here in the US if you want to find a non-minimum wage job, internet access definitely helps, and an address and phone number (or other form of contact) are mandatory. Heck, there's a not insignificant number of companies who won't even consider hiring you if they can't conduct a background check and/or credit check on you.

LMAO. Man, now I wish I lived in England. If people can still get jobs even while interviewing in casual clothes or unwashed, I'd be almost guaranteed a job in comparison!
Reply
:iconhappyhedgehog:
Happyhedgehog Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2011
Well honestly I was thinking along the lines on a minimum wage job, because everyone has to start somewhere and it seems to me that there are so many people (in the UK for sure) that are too 'high and mighty' to even consider a low paid job. *

But yes, it seems to me as though most people have lost the ability to live within their own means. I certainly remember from only a few years back going round to people’s houses, people who live on benefits in council owned and paid for houses and stepping inside to see a 42” screen TV along with numerous gaming systems and then wondering how the hell they’re able to afford it.

In my experience with minimum wage jobs, internet access definitely isn’t a must but like I said before, I can agree that an address is, and more than likely a telephone number, although it’s not unheard of to hear news by post. (But of course you can buy a pay as you go mobile phone now for about 14 and have your permanent no., it’s not too hard to figure a way around that).

I’m not sure if it’s the better jobs that want to conduct a credit check on you (and unless they’re a bank I’m not sure why they’d want to), but I know while a quick checkbox on a form about any criminal convictions you may have had and presumably some sort of google search of your name, for a background check is pretty much standard for shelf stacking jobs again. At least I’ve never witnessed anything past that.

And heck I’m pretty sure if you’re going for a job as a builder, your ability to look dashing in a tux isn’t top on their hit list of things to check. :lol: (Also the washing thing is probably optional too... although you’d probably have to show off your ‘leering at women’ skillz during the interview to get the job).

So yes... maybe you should move over, they’re sure to let you in if you’re willing to push around trolleys for a couple of hours a day.

Oh and I know what it’s like with the two tier society, our current governments principals essentially all revolve around turning our country in to a place where there’s the rich and then there’s the poor and nothing in between.

* One of the reason our government doesn't seem to want to put a stop to the large amount of immigrants coming over(not that I can blame them at all, because most of these 'immigrants' come here and work, actually helping our society by doing the low paid jobs that no one else wants to).
Reply
:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2011  Hobbyist Writer
Ah, I see. The problem is, around here, minimum wage is so minimum that you often still need some sort of government assistance to keep the bills paid.

It's not even about living within your means, really. I was pretty frugal--no kids, no cable TV, no car, no health insurance, very tiny apartment in a crappy neighborhood, the most valuable thing I owned was my computer (which cost around maybe $600 including the monitor and printer and everything) but my bare minimum expenses were still around $1000/month. If I got a 40/week minimum wage job, I'd make around $1178/month after taxes. And that's if I could get 40 hours a week, as most minimum wage places around here don't offer FT hours.

Now, imagine someone with kids and/or someone who needs a car to get to work, trying to live on similar wages without still needing assistance. You just can't. Or you can, but you're pretty much working 12 hours or more a day at two jobs (as my mom had to do until she was old enough for Social Security).

And mind you, Massachusetts has one of the highest minimum wages in the US. There's only six states with higher wages, and even the highest one doesn't break $9/hour.

I mean, I'd have been willing to give up and go back into retail, but it just wasn't an option after my best friend moved out. I'd still be in the red. I'm not lazy, but I'm not stupid either; if I'm going to be just as unable to pay the bills working at a shitty retail job as I would be sitting at home, what's even the point?

If you want something that pays an actual living wage and doesn't involve you having to pretty much live at your job(s), you're looking at either office work or needing to get a degree in some skill. And even the office work is starting to become impossible to get without a degree, much to my irritation.
Reply
:iconmirz123:
Mirz123 Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2011
I think they were serious. I have seen the trend, too. Poor are to be loathed. If they can't afford to survive, well, then... It's pretty scary because those types of beliefs are not new and they have led to some pretty scary stuff in the past. But, heaven help we learn from the past.

For a lot of people, "sustainable living" means getting rid of the "useless eaters." Scary stuff.
Reply
:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2011  Hobbyist Writer
Yeah. I don't know if this specific person was serious (not enough info in their profile to indicate), but I've certainly seen enough people who were totally serious saying somewhat similar things.

What bugs me is that, as you say, it doesn't have to be this way. We're one of the richest countries on this planet; we have more than enough resources to solve the problem of people being homeless or unable to keep up a household. But because we run on "Capitalism is good, socialism to freeloaders is bad, if you're poor it's because you're lazy", yeah, it doesn't happen. As you say, if the poor can't afford to survive, too bad in too many folks' minds.

Of course, it really bugs me when people say that the minimum wage workers are somehow not working hard enough or some crap. I wasn't kidding in that one post where I said my office job was easier than my retail one even though I was getting paid more to do it. I mean, sitting at my desk all day doing nothing but handling various types of paperwork and information, and not having to stand on my feet all day, scrub a single thing, lift a single box, or talk to a single customer? While getting $9/hour instead of $6/hour? I wasn't about to complain, but something was wrong with that picture.

Not that I even see how the freeloading would be bad even if it was as prevalent as people think it is. I mean, even adequate government assistance is still a pretty bare minimum existence. If someone lazy is really content living in a tiny, crappy apartment with almost no amenities or remotely fancy sustenance, well, I can't see the outrage. It's not like that support money is buying people a luxury existence or something. Meanwhile, most sane people would rather try for something better, but appreciate knowing they at least won't be starved or homeless in the process.
Reply
:iconmirz123:
Mirz123 Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2011
I understand there are people who scam the system. But what I don't think people realize is that it isn't like it used to be. You have to provide tons of proof of everything before you qualify for even a little assistance. And, as you said, the assistance is not the best.

Greed is the word. And it's an ugly word. I know a man who is a multi-millionaire and was complaining to me because his daughter asked for a "hand-out". She just wanted help with a downpayment on a car--a used car at that. This man lives only to stare at his brokerage accounts and see how much money he has. He doesn't even spend it on himself. The real oxymoron is that the most generous people are usually the poor. Of course, they have so little to give (though oftentimes you find them giving much more, percentagewise, than others).
Reply
:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Jan 7, 2011  Hobbyist Writer
Yeah, I hear that. I almost kind of respect the people who do manage to game the system, because I can't figure out how they do it.

I know there's been a few occasions where I cheated a little to save hassle, and got caught out anyway. The first time was when I didn't report to food stamps a temp job that was only going to last a few weeks, because I didn't want to go to the headache of them assuming it suddenly meant I could afford getting less benefits (I've found that government people really do NOT understand how working temp jobs actually works in terms of budgeting). But they found out anyway, cut my benefits on the mistaken assumption I was working that sort of pay all the time, and sure enough it took weeks and was a severe hassle getting them to understand I wasn't working the job any more because, hello, it was a damn three-week-long temp job.

(The highest point of idiocy was when I couldn't just give Unemployment permission over the phone to give my info to Food Stamps, since the Food Stamps lady had been blocked from accessing the info. I mean, sure, yay for keeping my privacy I guess, but they're two branches of the same government! If they seriously don't trust giving information to each other, that IMHO does not say reassuring things about my state's government.)

Then there was the bit where I moved and put off reporting it because I had a bunch of annoying other post-move stuff to deal with and it was a whole month before benefits were due again... and I still got an angry letter + phone call demanding why I hadn't reported the second I moved. I have no idea how they found out.

So yeah. I almost want those people who do manage to cheat the system to tell me how the hell they do it just to satisfy my curiosity.

And yeah, I've noticed that. Heck, I admit I'm the same way myself. Maybe it's because you understand what it's like to be struggling and need help, so you want to help yourself when you get the chance. Plus, in a strange sort of way giving charity feels empowering, you know? Most of the time you feel poor and needy and in need of help yourself, but when you finally get some extra dough to give away, you feel kind of powerful and useful for a moment. You get to be the charity-giver for a change, instead of the charity-recipient.

Whereas if you're rich, well, you just don't appreciate what having money means as much, nor do you know what it feels like to be helpless or need money. You think it only happens to Them, to the poor and begging.

I'm sitting here thinking about taxes, and how the rich are always bitching about having to pay lots of them. Whereas I remember the first time I ever earned enough money to actually owe taxes, I felt awesome. It was like, for the first time I actually got to pay back to my country, got to pitch into all those funds that had helped me and my mom out sometimes. I guess I find it kind of funny that supposedly we poor people are freeloaders, when the rich always complain about how they're expected to actually contribute financially to their country instead of freeloading off living there and not helping with the upkeep.
Reply
:iconrazorsaw:
Razorsaw Featured By Owner Dec 31, 2010
TL:DR has lost all meaning at this point.
Reply
:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Jan 1, 2011  Hobbyist Writer
Yeah, it seems like just a dodge/excuse to not even try to come up with a response.

What's even more hilarious is when it comes from people who say they do like people to back up their opinions. It's like, well, sorry, that usually takes more than a couple sentences...
Reply
:iconsteamstrike:
Steamstrike Featured By Owner Oct 20, 2010  Hobbyist General Artist
If this was directed at me, I apologize... I realize that I get distracted from the point way too often and I've been trying to improve myself. I've actually come a long way from a couple years ago but I still have alot of improvement I need to make.
Reply
:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Oct 20, 2010  Hobbyist Writer
Oh, no, it wasn't directed at you. It was sparked by an argument I was having on Slate, and is an absolute epidemic on the main TF forums.

Plus, there's a difference between someone innocently going off tangent just because they got distracted, and someone deliberately finding an excuse to go off on a tangent to completely dodge the point. It's rather irritating when I find myself stuck on some huge tangent because someone chose to focus on some casual word choice or statement that wasn't intended to be controversial and I would think even most pedantic people would realize is a valid thing or usage. It's like trying to discuss some huge math problem, and having someone arguing with the fact that you said x+y=z as part of your point because it's x+y=a in some incredibly obscure realm of mathematics not relevant to your point, even though x+y=z is perfectly correct in the realm of mathematics that *is* related to your point.

Or for an actual example, in the very first conversation I had on the Allspark, I casually referred to Animated as being cancelled while trying to make a point. I then got quite a few people giving me some idiocy about how "Animated wasn't cancelled, it didn't have a set length and just didn't get renewed" while not even addressing my actual point, even though, you know, everybody else on the planet who's not just being contrary just to be an ass understands "cancelled" as meaning "ended before the creators intended it to". Even if it turns out they're very technically correct, I still used a correct colloquial usage, and any difference is completely irrelevant to the overall point (since my usage of "cancelled" was just as shorthand for not having to type out "ended while it still had life in it").

And then there was the time that people had a really hard time grasping that even non-religious gay-friendly people tend to think of a "marriage" as referring to a monogamous relationship between two people unless otherwise noted.

And this sort of thing would happen repeatedly, and I'd get told "Words mean things", even though the word DOES mean what I was using it to mean, all so people could dodge having to respond to my point. (Since whenever I deflected back to the point I'd been trying to make, they'd find some excuse to ignore it again.)

Or, I'd find someone arguing about something that nobody else ever finds questionable or controversial, just for the sake of arguing with me (and dodging my point).

It's basically the "flimsy excuse to dodge your point" part I find annoying, not the "go off on a tangent" part alone. There's a difference between a casual, accidental tangent that's actually also productive; and/or making a correction or challenge about usage that's actually relevant; and arguing about something that wasn't even a genuine problem in my post in the first place, merely to disagree rather than to make a productive point.

(Or even more basically, the Grammar Nazi reaction applied to more than just grammar.)
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:iconntldr:
NTLDR Featured By Owner Oct 18, 2010
Question, what's "TL;DR"? I get scared because that has a frightening similarity to my screenhandle. :XD:
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:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Oct 18, 2010  Hobbyist Writer
It's short for "Too long; didn't read".

Ironically, that's the main way I remember how to spell your nick, even though I (think I) know what it's actually a reference to. >_>
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:iconntldr:
NTLDR Featured By Owner Oct 19, 2010
I've been connected in Jeysie's mind to people who don't read and say little! D8 HORRIBLE! HORRIBLE!

...Wait, dammit, now I've got to make this longer...
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:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Oct 20, 2010  Hobbyist Writer
:lol: Well, nothing wrong with being terse if you don't actually have to say more to get your point across. Just we need more love for those of us who need walls of text to get our points across. :3

And it's OK, I only associate in a mnemonic sense. I know you're a proper reader and writer!
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:iconladysokolov:
LadySokolov Featured By Owner Oct 14, 2010  Professional General Artist
Well hun. Er... you know how much I absolutely love you yes? *cuddles tightly*

I clicked on that link because I like to see what you've been talking about sometimes, and I have to say your argument was very well thought out and I agreed with pretty much all of it but...

You're going to have to accept 'agree to disagree' hun. I mean, as I said earlier, I do love you and I accept that you do like debating, but not accepting the 'agree to disagree' option er... makes you seem more than a little stubborn (which admittedly you are, but it's really not going to make you any friends.)

With that said, I do love you even though you're stubborn and like arguing far more than is healthy, and I look forward to talking to you once you wake up.

-Your Tanta
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:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Oct 14, 2010  Hobbyist Writer
You are right, though, I am stubborn too much and I like to argue too much. ^^; Or, perhaps more accurately, I like trying to educate people and/or make them think and examine things, which tends to lead to arguing.

And yeah, I know it doesn't make me friends. ^^; (I once told someone I don't expect gifts from my friends because, quite frankly, just willing to actually be friends with me is a nice enough gesture towards me already.)
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:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Oct 14, 2010  Hobbyist Writer
^^;

I think it was just the way he said it, you know? It'd be one thing if after a reasonable amount of time he came back and said, "Well, I think you have a lot of good points, but I just don't agree with them, and unfortunately I don't have the time to discuss further, which is why I said we'd have to agree to disagree." Or some other acknowledgement that respects what you said and politely demurs. I wouldn't mind the smackdown as much then.

But when you take the time to make a lengthy commentary on something, and five minutes later you get a one-liner dismissive comment... Especially when it's coming off a post where there already was an insinuation about making a too-long comment and daring to disagree with the fellow. It's basically a "Go away, I didn't even read what you said because I don't give a shit what you think", and it's both childish and irritating.

(I mean, I may be bitchy enough to complain about people that I think I have stupid comments, but I always at least grant the courtesy of at least reading and thinking about them first...)
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:iconladysokolov:
LadySokolov Featured By Owner Oct 14, 2010  Professional General Artist
Yes. But you've got to realise that 'agree to disagree' is basically the conversational equivalent of waving a white flag. He may not have actually said it, but what he was basically saying was 'you're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours so I'd rather be doing something else than continuing this debate.'

Once again, I do love you hun, but try to remember that not everyone joins in these conversations because they're after a lengthy debate. Some people just want to suggest something or have their opinion heard, and whether it's an opinion you agree with or not you're going to have to accept that.

*sighs* I guess, as long as you realise you're being stubborn about it though. ^^; :cuddle: Just... I dunno. If we ever end up in a fight I don't want it to just get worse because of your stubborness. I'm bad enough with confrontations as it is.
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:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Oct 14, 2010  Hobbyist Writer
I guess I just hate spending my time on something, and getting what feels like a disrespectful brush-off for it. If the guy had worded it more politely... but this, combined with his earlier irritation that I was disagreeing with him at all...

Plus, the guy actually was perfectly willing to debate with other people who replied to him, which made getting a brush-off myself even more surprising and off-putting. :/

I guess I mainly get stubborn when I feel like I'm being ignored or the person I'm talking to otherwise just doesn't care about what I'm saying. If I feel like I'm actually being listened to, I'm more reasonable.
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:iconsteamstrike:
Steamstrike Featured By Owner Oct 13, 2010  Hobbyist General Artist
Ugh, indeed. If the person genuinely won't admit they're wrong, why would you waste time telling them? Go find something better to do... like find some new evidence to back up your point of view. Stupid people.

Good for you, though, that you actually take the time to plan careful debates.
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:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Oct 14, 2010  Hobbyist Writer
I try to... although I think it'd be more accurate to say that I tend to reflexively self-examine the reasons why I have certain opinions, so it's less planning and more regurgitating what I figured out. And I do try to have opinions that are at least based on actual experience.

I guess I just like pushing people to take the time to do that examining on their own opinions and see if it makes sense, and I get disappointed by the number of people who don't even care to check and make sure their opinions make sense. (I mean even if you reexamine and decide you still want to keep your opinion, that's totally cool, as long as you thus have developed some good defenses/explanations for any flaws in your opinion.)
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:iconsteamstrike:
Steamstrike Featured By Owner Oct 14, 2010  Hobbyist General Artist
Nothing wrong with that. I always tell people to do research on both sides of an argument, then do their own research, before drawing a conclusion.

Although I like to start by assuming that everything we've established so far is wrong or doesn't exist and work from there... Erase everything out of existence. Now what am I trying to figure out, and what can we absolutely not deny in any way at all? Then, supposing there has never been any research done into this topic at all, what hypotheses can be concluded?
So far it's worked very well... although I always end up being the eccentric guy who works with the conspiracy theorists but doesn't agree with them any more than I agree with the mainstream people.
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:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Oct 15, 2010  Hobbyist Writer
I tend to take the opposite approach. I simply try to view how reality ends up working result-wise, and come up with the best explanation/theory that fits the pattern, pending changes for any new experiences.

When I don't have enough personal experience in a matter for such things, I then defer to someone who does have personal experience that's either documented or I don't have a reason to think is lying, as a "Good enough" approximation until I have reason to think otherwise.

So, in other words, I naturally approach life in a similar way to the Scientific Method.

Of course, this is part of why I tend to be very stubborn at times. Because often either the person's basically saying something I directly experienced didn't happen, or when you strip away the emotion and superficial changes and actually look at how something really is, I feel the other person is just plain wrong, or their logic makes no sense.

(You'd be surprised at how many people think a certain thing is true, just because they never looked deeply enough at something to realize something else entirely is actually the case. Or maybe you wouldn't be surprised.)
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:iconsteamstrike:
Steamstrike Featured By Owner Oct 16, 2010  Hobbyist General Artist
Ugh, it's true about people... I go on protests, which usually means working with "crazy conspiracy theorists" and I find it amazing how many times...

1. The people we're talking to completely trust the media and haven't done any research of their own (It doesn't necessarily have to be an actual conspiracy, but the government and/or the media could make a MISTAKE... jeez)

2. The people I'm working with are like "You need to listen to me, because I'm right!" instead of just presenting the evidence. Well what's the point of that? There's basically no difference between mindlessly following the media, or mindlessly following protesters...
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:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Oct 16, 2010  Hobbyist Writer
Yeah, I agree, mindlessly following anyone is a bad idea.

Although I will say I do tend to take the media and government more seriously, at least, for two reasons:

1. They usually have the resources to test out things and publish the results. As you say, my main gripe with the conspiracy theorists is "Where's your evidence?" Especially the "rogue scientists" who make up an excuse about how they can't publish, or they did publish and it got ignored, etc.

That's not to say mistakes aren't made (the FDA alone has a looooong list) or discoveries aren't hidden sometimes (although most of the things people claim are being hidden IMHO are just the opposite--the discoverer would actually make it widely known because they'd get a shitload of money/attention for it, but anyhoo), but this generally gets rooted out eventually because...

2. The conspiracy theorists who cry about media coverups and such forget that the media looooooves attention, and reporting about mistakes, leaks, whistleblowing, etc. is a really, really good way to get attention. No media system in the US, at least, is going to pass up getting to be the ones who scoop the story that throws everything on its ear.

That's not to say that media coverups don't exist, it's just that generally everyone's biding their time for whatever reason until they think they can finally get away with being that lucky scoop. An indefinite-length (intentional, at least) media coverup in the US is rather rare to find.

That's not to say I trust the government or media, mind you. I do try to do my own research, or at the very least my own "sanity testing", and my philosophy towards any new drug, food, or technology is to wait and see if anyone dies from it. But I don't go out of my way to assume the government/media is always wrong, either.
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:iconsteamstrike:
Steamstrike Featured By Owner Oct 16, 2010  Hobbyist General Artist
Ugh, that's stupid, the excuse about not being able to publish. I've been an independent inventor for almost nine years, and it's true that one can almost never do full-scale experiments... but doing scaled-down experiments is possible, and they could at least try something! If nothing else they could construct some sort of diagram corroborating their research.

In general, I think if FEMA did something, it was almost certainly a mistake. :P

I also think the government is incapable of admitting their mistakes, they consider themselves superior figures of high authority and don't want to deal with the consequences of their mistakes, and they'll go out of their way to deny and cover up their mistakes.
Most things that people think are conspiracies are just the government covering up their accidents, in my opinion... I have substantial evidence based on established physics that the official 9/11 commission report can't possibly be the whole story, and alot of my friends who are licensed engineers are backing me, but does that prove there was some kind of conspiracy? No. :roll: Does it prove controlled demolition? No! It just proves FEMA messed up the investigation... which, like I said, FEMA messes up almost everything. The idea that FEMA messed up something probably means there wasn't a conspiracy :P


In general it's easier to take the government/media more seriously - Conspiracy theorists standing in the street, yelling and not presenting themselves well, are usually quite disorganized and difficult to understand. That doesn't necessarily mean either side of the debate knows what they're doing - it's better to look at the physical evidence, in my opinion.
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:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Oct 21, 2010  Hobbyist Writer
Yeah, I think that sums up the other reason I don't look into conspiracies too much... "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."

(If the Government was clever enough to pull off a sustained conspiracy, they'd probably be clever enough to just do right to begin with whatever they're trying to cover up. :lol:)
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:iconhappyhedgehog:
Happyhedgehog Featured By Owner Sep 2, 2010
It's interesting... I can't really see how people can deny the effect we're having on our planet. Do they honestly think that greenhouse gases and everything else we pump into the atmosphere has no affect what so ever? Then again I suppose, there are people out there that honestly think that the world is less than 6000 years old and that we're made from dirt. >_> Quite frankly, I'm not sure I have much faith in humanity on the 'awareness' scale of things. Seems to me that goldfish have more of a sense of perception about their environment than your average human.
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:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Sep 2, 2010  Hobbyist Writer
*snort* Ain't that the truth, I think, regards the goldfish.

Although I think I can understand the global warming denial a little. Being eco-responsible requires sacrifice, after all, so it's a lot easier to just poo-poo those silly scientists who don't know what they're talking about. Bonus points if you can somehow one-up them by claiming it's been scientifically disproven, or that the media's just covering up the truth.

(Which is totally daffy, of course. Every time there's been a huge coverup, there's always been at least one big paper willing to go for the ratings by getting to scoop the big whistleblower story, and everyone else would then pile on. I think people who claim a media coverup overlook just what it takes to keep our blabbermouth US media quiet. If even the president and CIA can't do it...)

...I have not even a token amount of justification for the 6000 years old or made of dirt bits, though. :XD:
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:iconsteamstrike:
Steamstrike Featured By Owner Sep 2, 2010  Hobbyist General Artist
Global warming has been scientifically disproved... but anyway...

I completely agree with you. If people don't want to debate logically, reasonably, and with reasonable English (or whatever language they're debating in) they should just ignore the comment. They also shoudn't put up stamps regarding controversial topics and expect no debates.
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:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Sep 2, 2010  Hobbyist Writer
*facepalm* No, actually, global warming has not been remotely disproved. I can't believe you buy into the crackpot denialist idiocy too.

Every scientific report I've seen recently still finds global warming to be very much valid, and scientists still very much agree it's occuring. The only sources I've ever read that claim global warming is somehow disproved are all from known heavily right-wing biased sources or "conspiracy theorist" type sources. (Kind of like, well, Fox News, the Drudge Report, and WorldNetDaily.)

This article: [link] and this article: [link] do a good job of collecting many of the references and cites for what the real scientific consensus is--namely, most scientists either agree global warming is valid or are simply non-committal about it.
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:iconexceedinglyspherical:
exceedinglyspherical Featured By Owner Sep 2, 2010
Climate modeling and understanding the human impact on the climate are young scientific fields, and there will be scientists who disagree with each other about exactly how one properly interprets the data and models the future, and that new understandings of this will arise as time progresses. This is the normal development path of all sciences.

But the bullshit way any science is presented in the media means that the average Joe Blogs gets the idea that any disagreements between scientists must mean that entire field of science is wrong or irrelevant. Plus there's an overarching negative trend in the US, UK and Australia to distrust highly educated people, dismissing them as elitists who don't really know how life is outside of their ivory towers. Hence your little 'friend' and their moronically simple stamp. She sees seasonal fluctuation from year to year - what's wrong with these idiot scientists?


No offense but you're beating your head against a brick wall arguing with people who refuse to think that human activity has negatively impacted Earth's climate. They aren't approaching it from a knowledge standpoint, but from a form of selfishness, as accepting it means they have to think about their own contribution to it and perhaps face the idea of changing how they live. There are sections of Western societies that get very indignant over this science, as if it has personally offended them by suggesting that driving their Hummer and consuming endless piles of shit is part of the cause.

Thus they will only pay attention to sources that tell them what they want to hear and reinforce their preconception that they don't have to feel bad about being part of the problem, or tax their brains about being part of the solution.

People who dismiss climate science out of hand are, to me, much like Birthers who constantly refuse to accept Obama's nationality, or people who think the Israelis planned 9/11 or that the UN is a plot to round up God fearin' Americans and take away their beloved guns.

When I see this kind of belligerent willful ignorance, I just don't bother, because it will be a waste of time. You'll get frustrated, they'll run away with their fingers in their ears and nothing will actually change.
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:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Sep 5, 2010  Hobbyist Writer
You are of course, completely right as usual. I actually even said a few of these things in my comments to her.

Though I will say I initially thought she was just a simple person who thought the "idiots" thing. If I'd known she was a full-blown crackpot conspiracy theorist who thinks Fox News is a reliable news source, I wouldn't have bothered.

Plus... as a skeptic myself, I felt a little bit insulted by the people who think that being a "skeptic" means not trusting THE MAN and believing everything said in mainstream media is wrong and only the underground sites who disbelieve everything have it right. When really, believing the opposite of everything just makes you as much of a gullible idiot as the person who believes what's given to them at face value.
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:icongharanth:
Gharanth Featured By Owner Aug 9, 2010  Hobbyist General Artist
At the end of that when they were behaving below the level of the six year olds that I used to help teach as a student, I swear I could feel a few brain cells die as they couldn't cope with the whole inane charade.

At this point I feel I must point out that this oldie has absolutely no idea what 'TL;DR' is and has no wish to find out. Despite attempts by even my nearest and dearest to educate me in this travesty of the written language. I am English and this is my language. I will attempt to honour my country by keeping standards at a reasonable level.

What ever happened to the polite "I respect your point of view however I personally do not agree with it" followed by a reasoned explanation as to why, or, the fates forbid, an admittance that the person debating your statement might be (gasp) correct.

I salute you my dear, as you are rational, your responses well thought out and you are willing to stick to your opinions. At no point did you ever slide into the petulance that was shown by their lack of ability when it came to writing with any form of eloquance. Be proud that you uphold the standards when it comes to good sense and good English.

I end with that well known phrase:
"Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level and then beat you with their experience."
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:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Aug 10, 2010  Hobbyist Writer
Well, I admit I wasn't all that nice at the end there, but... yeah, gah. I could feel my own brain cells melting. I find something ironic about people complaining about a troll problem basically acting like trolls themselves.

And, yeah, I have so much trouble not letting myself get dragged down. XP
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:icongharanth:
Gharanth Featured By Owner Aug 11, 2010  Hobbyist General Artist
What worries me is when I am in pain and on strong medicines I can still write a lot better than these people. The spelling suffers but at least I have an excuse as my brain is mushy.

Where trolls evolve from? :D
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:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Aug 11, 2010  Hobbyist Writer
People who flunked English class, I wager. Or, judging from one of the comments, people who think English class is the only place where writing clearly matters.

Alternatively, clearly we need to start making people start going back under their bridges.
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:iconaesir-cookies:
Aesir-Cookies Featured By Owner Aug 9, 2010  Hobbyist Photographer
A lot of kids do think that they are the kings of the internet though, and that their pov is the only valid one etc, and most can't even understand sarcasm <.<
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:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Aug 10, 2010  Hobbyist Writer
Yeah, I've noticed that. I suppose they're going to be in for a shock when they grow up...

Makes me appreciate the G1 Crew more. We have a lot of teens, but they tend to be more intelligent/mature ones.
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:iconaesir-cookies:
Aesir-Cookies Featured By Owner Aug 10, 2010  Hobbyist Photographer
except in the case of geewunners lol
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:iconjzlobo:
JZLobo Featured By Owner Aug 8, 2010  Hobbyist Writer
Ugh, stupid people. I'm dealing with a couple dipshits who are harassing me on my front page after I reported them for art theft.
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:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Aug 8, 2010  Hobbyist Writer
I'm definitely lucky in that I haven't gotten people harassing me on my page proper or my deviations so far (knock on wood). There are many occasions where I sit there going, "Why did I bother to post on the forums here again?" though.
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:iconjzlobo:
JZLobo Featured By Owner Aug 8, 2010  Hobbyist Writer
Ugh, yeah, I only venture into the forums when I'm feeling brave.
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:iconexceedinglyspherical:
exceedinglyspherical Featured By Owner Jul 9, 2010
Ah, the old TL:DR. Cute for five minutes when it first popped up on the net God knows how many years ago, but now it's merely a tedious public declaration that you either have a very short attention span, are illiterate or think yourself too important to have to spend your precious time reading someone else's writing. Much akin to a five year old loudly proclaiming that they're BORED because they want someone to pay attention to them.

5 through 7 are reflections of some peoples' wish that their opinion be treated somewhat like the physical fact that the Earth revolves around the Sun ie: unassailable and infallible fact. To which I must take liberty to reply with another old nugget of netspeak: LOL.

9. You know I think this one is going to fade away in the coming years, particularly as the younger generation who have grown up with social media as an integral and seamless part of their socializing start to get a bit older. Even large numbers of older generations now communicate electronically - it's permeating so many people's lives and becoming not just an accessory or bourgeois extra but an essential component of socializing in the modern world.

The aging idea that the internet is it's own separate thing and is totally not equal to 'real life socializing' is hard to pull off believably even now, and will become an ever more ridiculous notion as the years pass. Hell, I used it some years back, but as time moved I realized what a quaint notion it is. Most of the time when you see someone use this today, it's a hollow blow off, a knee jerk recital of an old internet chestnut that most don't believe, it's just a dismissive discussion ender and a tacit admission that the individual has lost the discussion.
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